Homophobic Behaviors: What it is and Isn’t.
a fandom guide by a lesbian shipper (comments & additions welcome).
After glancing at my inbox and getting the fifth accusation of being a homophobe (today alone), it’s become very clear to me that a discussion needs to be had about what, exactly…
I was asking her a couple of questions. Does she need you to answer them for her?
I’m not answering the questions you asked her. Your questions are irrelevant to the actual topic of the post, and you’re the first to point out when someone strays off topic in a public forum. Your questions, while harmless and ignorant, are meant to undermine her stance by telling her that she shouldn’t speak on behalf of a group that she belongs to. This is how people invalidate actual issues other people experience, specifically issues certain people refuse to acknowledge as existing. By suggesting that this one voice is singular in that complaint and therefore shouldn’t use a group to back their gripes.
But the group has fuck all to do with the post. Her use of the term ‘we’ has fuck all to do with the topic. You’re detracting from the topic, because you don’t think the topic isn’t important. Don’t act like your questions were innocent in origin. They weren’t.
You think so?
And I should care about what you think, why?
It doesn’t matter what I think, or whether you care about it or not. You’re bullshitting all over this post instead of responding to the actual point of it, which is what you do. How many times have you asked people what gives them the right to speak for a group of people, when they’ve voiced an opinion common in the group they belong to? Coincidentally, it’s generally in a discussions about problematic shit sterek fans do. This is your defense, and it’s bullshit. Unlike you, I kept to the topic of your response. You just relied on red herrings, something that you seem to accuse every other person of doing. If you care, I think that’s hilarious.
Your understanding of what a Red Herring is is a bit flawed, I recommend further reading on the topic. A Red Herring is someting that is irrelevant to the discussion because it introduces or focuses on an aspect that is irrelevant to the subject of the discussion.
So unless you want to claim that marygreenman’s argument in itself was irrelevant to the topic, me adressing and questioning said argument isn’t a Red Herring.
When someone argues based on certain premises, then their oppnonent may question these premises. And that’s what I did.
The premises that I questioned were
a) marygreenman’s claim to be able to speak for queer people in general
and b) her implied assumption that slashers were not queer.
You see, being a part of a group does not give you the right to speak on behalf of said group.
A couple of exampels: I’m German, but that does not mean that I can speak on behalf of all Germans. I’m a woman, but that does not mean that I can speak for all women.
In a hypothetical situation where I am the only German around, then my claim to be an authority on all things German might be valid, to a degree. But the second another German is around, I better make damn sure that they agree with me before I speak of “we.”
So if marygreenman wants to be able to speak of “we” as a representative of the LGBT community and adress slash shippers as “you” with demands, then she better make sure that slash shippers are not also LGBT.
As soon as your argument is based on your claim to be an authority who is able to speak on behalf of a group, you’re walking on very thing ice, because, newsflash, there’s always someone around who belongs to your group but has a completely different view on things than you do.
And marygreenman, identifying as a lesbian, trying to talk on behalf of the LGBT community when there’s evidence that slash shippers are mostly LGBT people themselves is not even walking on thin ice, but pretty much already sinking to the bottom of the lake.
Okay, two things. you ignored the part where Mary used ‘for a lot of us’ or some shit, when speaking about lgbt folk, which implies that she was NOT speaking for every lgbt folk ever to ever exist ever. You also ignored the part where nothing she said was her stating how the lgbt community FEELS about slash shippers. The only part where she used the group was in stating that we are not play things, a lot of us struggle with obtaining basic human rights. That was literally it, and you focusing on literally that is a red herring. It’s also a strawman argument, you’re literally creating this entire problem up on your own. If you have a problem with her stating that folk who fall in that group are not play things, then state that, because that’s all you can argue with, because that’s all she said when she spoke for the group.
And second, your evidence of most slash shippers falling in the lgbt category themselves is still very very flawed, and presumptuous of you to pretend to even know. When she said YOU she was talking to slash shippers, but you really think she was telling lgbt folk to treat slash pairings with respect when writing them? Common sense would tell you that she’s obviously talking to the straight fans, who don’t have to deal with these very personal issues, who often misrepresent shit in their fics because they’re uninformed half the time, which is why your focusing on that shit is also a red herring, because not only is the focus you’re putting on it irrelevant, the fact that you’re so focused on it with such a rabid defense is your problem, not hers. There is nothing wrong with the way she phrased that, and if it offends you, then you’re probably part of the problem.
You talk like people in the minority groups shouldn’t use their experiences and knowledge in arguments like this, like they’re invalid. They’re not fucking invalid, you’re just talking over them like what you have to say is more important than what they do. She is a queer woman, she has more validity when discussing the issues she finds in slash fandom than a straight woman would. Just like I have more right and validity in an argument about abortion than a man would. Just like POC have more validity in racism discussions than a white person would - not that you actually acknowledge their validity, given the arguments you find yourself in within fandom. Just because you say it doesn’t matter, doesn’t mean it actually doesn’t matter.
Okay, let’s go over this again.
Your text makes it sound as if you were convinced that m/m shipper weren’t, to the majority, queer. Is that what you think?
When you include topics and characters of minority groups, your narration has a responsibility to treat them with respect. We’re not your playthings. For many of us, it’s a struggle to be treated like actual human beings with everyday rights.
This makes it sound as if you were claiming the right to speak for a group of people. What group is that, and what gives you the right to speak on behalf of others?
Look here, sugar pie. That was my first reply to her. That’s me asking what she meant. That’s me asking her to clarify. And nothing else.
And if you think that’s a Red Herring, you’re oh so sadly mistaken. Again, I recommend further reading on the topic. *sigh*
And second, your evidence of most slash shippers falling in the lgbt category themselves is still very very flawed, and presumptuous of you to pretend to even know.
I was asking her for evidene for the implied dichotomy. Evidence she didn’t deliver. And unless she does, the exact composition of “slash shippers” remains a mystery, but to refute her “we” against “you” rhetoric, my evidence is plenty.
It’s a bit like Schrödinger’s cat. Unless we have reliable evidence, for either, “slash shippers” could be mostly heterosexual or queer, we don’t know. But any argument based on the assumption that they are either is questionable at best.
Now, I don’t have to prove that slash shippers are mostly queer to refute her argument based on the dichotomy between LGBT folks and slash shippers. She has to prove that dichotomy exists. And that survey does in fact constitute evidence to the contrary, although, granted, by no means conclusive evidence.
You talk like people in the minority groups shouldn’t use their experiences and knowledge in arguments like this, like they’re invalid.
Did I ever say that her personal experience was invalid? Did I ever say that she wasn’t allowed to feel the way she described?
I’d be really astonished if you could point out just one case where I ever said such a thing.
But personal experience is something different entirely than expertise.
And I’ve pointed the same thing out more than once. Most recently here and here.
Being a part of a certain group/minority gives you personal experience. No more, no less. And it becomes really problematic if you start to think that your personal experience is really suited to make general statements about a topic. But I get that that is hard to accept for many people who are used to getting away with that kind of reasoning.
Nothing you just said is relevant, because you just said her rhetoric was pitting slash fans against lgbt community, and that is factually incorrect. So whatever argument you come up with based on that situation is irrelevant. And the fact that you came up with that argument when she failed to clarify her words, which don’t need clarification unless you lack reading comprehension, proves that it wasn’t an innocent question. Your opinion was made up already without that clarification. You went on the defensive and it says all it needs to say about your stance on this topic.
The fact that you continue to call me bullshit words like sugar pie also proves your inability to adapt depending on what other people want from you. You can’t do something as simple as refraining from attaching bullshit endearments to people who ask you not to, so I don’t understand why you continue to believe you have the intelligence to argue shit that actually effects living people, not a goddamn shipping community.